When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Here the PantoRouter excels. The outside of the template is tapered a really clever way of fine-tuning the size of the tenon and to do this, just re-position the bearing follower on the wider or narrower part of the template for a slightly bigger or smaller tenon. Unless, of course, you link this mechanical linkage up to a router. For instance, you can use the multi router to work on the wall panels, flooring, cabinets, furniture, and even some of the engraved art pieces at the same time. In 2009 FineWoodworking listed the price as $2750. The majority of owners have found the PantoRouter to be the more efficient unit, while the older users still stick with their multi-router systems. It can handle heavy duty operations to support production type work that some folks may need. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. This new router does not come with a base as it's intended to be used in the PantoRouter router mounts or in a router table. This will help you to have the best possible precision and accuracy at the same time. That is certainly something that you will be loving, and you can make it work for all your needs. I started out doing mortises with a plunge router. Nothing on the planet matches the Multi-Router for speed, accuracy and control. Herb I sure didn't know you had one. Fine Woodworking receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs. It does not store any personal data. The pantarouter is an option for sure, but it looks like a toy compared to the multi-router. So what happens when you want to cut a joint other than a 10mm mortise & tenon? I made the wood pantorouter from his plans with some mods and works very well and if you made if from wood its no expensive at all, just time consuming. That way, you can ask other users about their experience with this system. Get instant access to over 100 digital plans available only to UNLIMITED members. For those of you who are already part of the Multi-Router family, most of the improvements are backwards compatible with your machine. I have just watched some of his videos, what stands out is that a lot of his projects seem to be in softwood. Template Holder. If youre ready to take traditional joinery techniques to a new level of precision, accuracy, and speed. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". Each of the heavy-duty clamps rotates a full 360 degrees and can be dropped into any one of 18 different locations. As far as the basic functionality is concerned, you will be able to get almost the same value from both of these systems. The machine is comprised of six solid, CNC machined aluminum castings. I hadn't heard of it until this thread, and just checked out some vids. Patents: 10,639,754 11,351,641 10,016,868 11,517,988 11,524,376 11,524,375 11,565,359,16/947,404 (NOA 2/1/2023), 18832971.7-EPOAnd others foreign and domestic pending and applied for. Anything you touch has been made to feel comfortable and inspire confidence. by jsburger Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:55 pm, Post and for which a search was conducted for its use. RoutMaster Pro 230V Router Motor for Export Only. Joseph if you mess a part up just start over. However, if you cant find any reliable dealer at this point in time, you can head over to local workshops and then test out these stems. I just received a Pantorouter a few days ago. Horizontal and vertical mortise and tenon templates (1, 1-, 2, 2- & 3 Horizontal plus 1-1/2 and 2- Vertical), 22mm guide bearing with 6mm shaft (GB-22), 15mm guide bearing with 6mm shaft (GB-15), 12mm guide bearing with 6mm shaft (GB-12), 10mm guide bearing with 6mm shaft (GB-10). I then built the two drawers using the box joint method on the PR and they turned out very well. The wood used was hard maple. Or vice versa? Tables must be consulted to choose the correct combination of guide bearing, template and cutter, and if you want a specific size that isnt in the table, you need to use an equation and perhaps buy a specific cutter size. I too follow his projects and enjoy watching his videos. You can add extra hold-down clamps or supplement them with optional pneumatic clamps. I have just watched some of his videos, what stands out is that a lot of his projects seem to be in softwood. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. As mentioned earlier, for an 18mm thick component, a 6mm mortise & tenon seems more appropriate, but at this point the elegant simplicity of the PantoRouter seems to evaporate: a 6mm cutter will work for the mortise but it wont work for the tenon. Does anyone see anything the Multi-Router can do versus the PantoRouter? Join our trusted experts for these in-depth, online learning experiences. it is pricey but if you were to use it alot it might be worth it. Securing your work couldnt be easier or faster. I believe he is educated as a mechanical engineer. It's both a prototyping and short-run production workhorse that can create tenons, dovetails, drilling patterns or free-hand contours, among other options. I thought about getting one but ultimately held off on it. The Multi-Router is a serious, heavy-duty machine that will take your woodworking as far as you want it to go. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. Sign up for eletters today and get the latest techniques and how-to from Fine Woodworking, plus special offers. I guess it would cost a lot but every thing cost a lot. The wood used was hard maple. Or, drop the fence below the table and use the vertical table itself as your depth stopa real advantage for quick setups. The workpiece travels in the X and Y axes (in-out and side-to-side). The PantoRouter woodworking machine excels at mortise and tenon, box-joints and dovetails and with our high quality templates you can make hundreds of different joints. If theres a router involved, then maybe this could be interesting. My 1st project after setup was a Jay Bates cart build for the new tool which was basically 2x4s milled and the mortise and tenon construction which went very well. Or, drop the fence below the table and use the vertical table itself as your depth stopa real advantage for quick setups. Every direction has travel limiting stops and can be independently locked. The All-In Package contains all of our most popular templates and accessories. Precise -Repeatable -Mortise & Tenon - Simple & compound angle joinery - Multiple & custom shaped mortise & tenon - Fast & accurate dovetails & box joints-The uses are limited only by your imagination! This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. I believe there is a metal pantorouter made now, Hong Kong maybe, quite similar to his. Multi router and PantoRouter are two such tools that are pretty great, and you wouldnt have to worry about anything. Id just cut the mortices and tennons on the tablesaw. There are two levers that control the movement of the routers for you, and you can also choose them to be stationary at a single point. Click below to sign-up and again, we promise to respect your time and privacy. Many of these customers have told us they wish theyd bought a more complete package to begin with. The size of the table seemed really small and I'm not sure if it can support larger pieces. 05-31-2022, 07:31 AM I just received a Pantorouter a few days ago. The PantoRouters carriage moves precisely along the X and Y axes. $5.00 Bosch router mount conversion kit. - Granny Weatherwax If it ain't a pig, it ain't a piggy bank. Not bad at all. A woodworking forum for woodworking hobbyist and woodworking projects related and unrelated to the Shopsmith MARK V, Post Its the only joinery machine with machined tables in both the horizontal and vertical plane. With dust extraction and router switched on, There are many tables and drawings to consult to help with choice of template and cutter combinations, The depth stop is very simple to adjust and lock, To cut a mortise, the bearing-guided follower is positioned in the centre of the template, Templates and cutters for mortise & tenon and dovetail joints. The routers on the multi router would allow you to have the right edge of perfection and utility at the same time. Yet, there are some tools that are more complex, and you will be able to enjoy the perfect if you know how to make it work in the right manner. Also the size and combinations of multi Tenon joints are only limited by the type of templates and guide pin combinations. We have created these special content collections organized to give you a deep dive a bad bearing or improper alignment can telegraph throughout giving less than stellar results. the thing it produces is half the size of the template. The pantorouter is a new, highly capable machine that performs like a souped-up slot mortiser. Festool OF 1400 Router Review Should You Go For It? Hello, I'm the founder of this blog and a part time blogger. Start your 14-day FREE trial - and get building! The PantoRouter Woodworking Machine uses a guide bearing to follow a template which moves the router bit to cut a pattern identical in shape but 1/2 the size. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. By allowing the ball bearing stylus to follow a precise template, human error is virtually eliminated. Most of the time, it will take only a bit of effort on your end to find the right fit as you try out the PantoRouter and the Multi Router for yourself. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. Woodpeckers You can build your own stand for your Multi-Router (it makes a great starting project) or get the factory steel base and get right to work. $249.00 Vertical Clamping Jig. 1-800-752-0725. Compound angles for a crest rail of a chair take only minutes to set-up and cut. Get complete site access to video workshops, digital plans library, online archive, and more, plus the print magazine. Things would probably become a little simpler if you just used the machine to cut elongated mortises and used Dominos instead of cutting tenons, but this is not quite the aim of the inventor and, of course, a Domino machine cuts mortises for Dominos with an understandable self-assurance. The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. It all comes down to how youre planning on limiting the learning curve. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. by jsburger Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:20 pm, Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB Limited. The pantorouter is also capable of doing more than face joining. I originally designed it for cutting tenons, but the machine is very versatile and can be used for all kinds of wood joints. It comes with two type ER-20A collets and two wrenches. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Another major improvement, you no longer need three separate A, B, or C tenon templates to adjust the size of your tenon. These were some specifics on the PantoRouter and the Multi Router to help you find the right fit. into a range of topics that matter. Skip to the beginning of the images gallery, for speed, accuracy and control. Matthias Wandel on You Tube is a very remarkable wood worker and very smart. It comes with two type ER-20A collets and two wrenches. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Find out how well products perform with the help of Top New Reviews comprehensive tests. Router rides in a carriage attached to an articulating arm. Just keep the stylus on the template and make your cut. Button stops provide precise alignment of your workpiece square to the vertical table or at standard angles of 22.5, 30 and 45. He made this pantorouter a while back and it sure does a lot of things and does them well, at least when he is showing what it does. Come join the discussion about different types of routing and routers, shop safety, finishing, woodworking related topics, styles, tools, scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Making dovetails on the PantoRouter joinery machine is fast, easy, and accurate. Capable of cutting endless custom joints and templates, the PantoRouter is a really clever concept, says John Lloyd, but would perhaps be better suited to the machine-based woodworking enthusiast with an engineering brain. Button stops provide precise alignment of your workpiece square to the vertical table or at standard angles of 22.5, 30 and 45. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. It allows you to have a vertical surface moving up and down, and the routers are mounted horizontally behind the workpiece. Im happy with it. It looks like Woodpeckers did buy the rights to the Multi Router and are planning some. So, dont hesitate to reach out as you increase your understanding of what unit will best match your budget. Woodpeckers_Multi-Router_Instructions_Part1of2_PG1-12_REV033122, Woodpeckers_Multi-Router_Instructions_Part2of2_PG13-24_REV033122, Bosch 1617-EVS 2.25 HP Electronic Fixed Base Router, Bora Portamate PM-1050 Universal Mobile Base. from $160.00 PantoRouter. Anything that slides does so on precision linear ball bearings gliding on a case hardened precision ground shafting. The tilting table model can also be set up for compound angles and with the table in the 90 position has a large clamping area. So, depending on your preferences, you can test out both of these systems. The PantoRouter is manufactured for the North America market with tilting table and 3.5" diameter router mount. So, watching this thread also. I have set it up and cut approximately 30 mortises and maybe 12 tenons. And now, most of the chips and nearly all the fine particle dust can be eliminated with the new, standard-equipment dust cabinet.On the Multi-Router, every motion of the router and work piece is controlled by a series of twelve glass-smooth, tight-tolerance linear bearings gliding on precision ground and polished 3/4" steel shafts. The majority of the market believes PantoRouter to be the more efficient option, and you might also like this system. Yet, there are certain differences between them both, and you will need to make sure that you are getting the perfection of the work without worrying about precision, any mistakes, or anything like that. Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. I received the Hybrid Pantorouter from WoodCraft Solutions earlier this morning. This is especially true when youll find a ton of experts behind every option. The base model PantoRouter does contain two sets of mortise and tenon templates, box joint templates and dovetail templates, plus guide bearings and centering jigs. I'm also really interested in how the machine goes in practice. Every direction has travel limiting stops and can be independently locked. Maybe down the road when I've acquired the tools on my wishlist and I'm looking to blow something on, I'll get one. That is why you will need to get not only the best tool to help you out but also know how to use it in the right manner and if it is what suits you need to make it work for the project you have at hand. It looks like the Pantorouter has some type of plastic template pieces whereas the Woodpecker version of the JDS Multi-Router has aluminum templates. The PantoRouter woodworking machine excels at mortise and tenon, box-joints and dovetails and with our high quality templates you can make hundreds of different joints. Though it is very expensive and hard to justify outside of a production woodworking shop. It should be good at these, then, so thats the joint I went for. You can also connect with me via Facebook, Twitter and Youtube. Logged Job and Knock Posts: 159 Re: Hybrid Pantorouter Reply #5 on: December 04, 2016, 04:44 PM The larger box contains the main PantoRouter Woodworking Machine and the smaller box has the assembly hardware, templates, fence, bits, router and clamps depending on which package was purchased. I bet you do love it. $0.00 Plunge Lever Upgrade Kit. For the best experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser. Some months back I took delivery of a new PantoRouter and have been getting familiar with it. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. See the router selection guide to make sure your router will fit. I'd be interested to hear from someone that has bought the metal version on how sturdy it is. Box joints of any size can easily and quickly be made using this jig. The workpiece travels in the X and Y axes (in-out and side-to-side). Thought about it a couple times, but always stopped for various reasons. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google, Plus tips, advice, and special offers from, Get woodworking tips, expert advice and special offers in your inbox, Get woodworking tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox, Shaker candle stand with Christian Beckvoort, Designer's notebook: Turning out of context, How to build old-fashioned carriage doors. Angles and compound angles are fast and easy. Both machines, with the router installed, weigh about 43 pounds (19.5 kg). The PantoRouter Woodworking Machine uses a guide bearing to follow a template which moves the router bit to cut a pattern in shape.. Re: pantorouter multirouter mortser. I invented and published this machine in 2010. The tilting-table PantoRouter can be used for a variety of joinery functions including mortise and tenon joints, dovetail joints, box joints, and other cutting operations where the router is held horizontally and perpendicular to the work piece. Two adjustments and I was off making through dovetails. Another major improvement, you no longer need three separate A, B, or C tenon templates to adjust the size of your tenon. This makes it great for joinery, whether its traditional or has a little more flair. PantoRouter, as the name suggests, has 5 routers working at the same time that are meant to help you achieve the precision that you have always been seeking. That is how we all learn. Now were taking it to a new level with the addition of the new MT Templates, MT Stylus, Variable Stylus, and countless other valuable upgrades weve made throughout. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. on the Multi-Router is now easier than ever with our new MT Templates, MT Stylus, and Variable Stylus. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. I don't have an answer for you, however, I would suggest that you sign up to the. The templates precisely guide the ball bearing stylus and feature perfectly square shoulders, not beveled edges, so theres no need for trial-and-error test cuts every time you switch between mortise and tenons. Of course, you can buy several similar tools ready made too. The PantoRouter https://www.timbecon.com.au/pantorouter-joinery-systemPatrick Holcombe (The Router Bits) is well-known for his use of the router to achieving. I really hate routers for that kind of thing. info@pantorouter.com, ShopGetting StartedPantoProjectsVideos & TutorialsSales & ServiceAbout UsPrivacy Policy, PantoRouter ALL-IN Woodworking Machine Package, PantoRouter Pro-Pack Woodworking Machine Package, PantoRouter ALL-IN Package For Export Only, WoodCraft Solutions LLC, Portland, OR, USA, Template, Bit and Guide Bearing Selection Tool, Build a tray to organize your PantoRouter accessories. This Base Model PantoRouter is meant for manufacturing facilities where it will be setup for one very specific job and will not be used for different kinds of joinery. Precision cast-iron and milled aluminum components combine to make a robust system suitable for woodworking shops of any size. This is a REAL machine that delivers complete repeatability and eliminates tedious trial-and-error set-ups. This is a REAL machine that delivers complete repeatability and eliminates tedious trial-and-error set-ups. Other uncategorized cookies are those that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet. Mortise and tenon, box joints, and dovetails are just the beginning! On the other hand, there are a ton of experts that still like their multi-router system better. However, once it's dialed in, it should give you more repeatably precise mortises and tenons than a domino jointer. by RFGuy Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:34 pm, Post http://jdstools.com/product/multi-router/, Quote from: Job and Knock on December 04, 2016, 04:44 PM, Quote from: polarsea1 on December 19, 2016, 01:16 AM. Cut a mortise and two perfect tenons for a chair rail or . There is no point in going with the more complex unit when you cant secure any support from local experts. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. You wont be disappointed by this purchase, and it will help if you can get some pointers from an expert. JavaScript is disabled. Centerlines are engraved on both tables, making alignment of your work simple and fast. The basic model does not have a router, dust collection hood or hose, bits, centering scale fence or table clamps included. Cut a mortise and two perfect tenons for a chair rail or face frame in 4- minutes. , Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB limited, Woodpeckers_Multi-Router_Instructions_Part2of2_PG13-24_REV033122, Bosch 1617-EVS 2.25 HP Electronic Fixed Base router Bora. Believes PantoRouter to be the more efficient option, and you can also connect with me via,... The North America market with tilting table and use the vertical table or at standard angles of 22.5 30! You go for it be interesting limiting stops and can be independently locked had. Type work that some folks may need ( 19.5 kg ), CNC machined castings! And eliminates tedious trial-and-error set-ups accuracy in the X and Y axes ( in-out and side-to-side ) square to vertical! Unless, of course, you will be able to get almost the same.! Make your cut, depending on your preferences, you can make it work for kinds. Nothing on the multi router to help you to have the right edge of perfection and utility at same. Family, most of the images gallery, for speed, accuracy and control,. It ai n't a piggy bank Hong Kong maybe, quite similar his! Sure if it ai n't a piggy bank, traffic source, etc Powered by phpBB Forum Software phpBB.. Far as you want to cut a joint other than a 10mm mortise & tenon that... And speed be loving, and dovetails are just the beginning of the JDS Multi-Router aluminum! The store will not work correctly in the X and Y axes in-out. You go for it see anything the Multi-Router is a real machine that performs like a souped-up mortiser... Hong Kong maybe, quite similar to his and maybe 12 tenons would... Forum Software phpBB limited it will help you to have the right edge of perfection and at! Multi-Router for speed, accuracy and control plans library, online archive, and Variable.! It up and down, and Variable stylus i started out doing mortises with a plunge router, may. Precision ground shafting for joinery, whether its traditional or has a more! The most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits as yet versus the PantoRouter manufactured..., dont hesitate to reach out as you increase your understanding of what will! Your woodworking as far as you increase your understanding of what unit will match! It Should be good at these, then, so thats the i. Started out doing mortises with a plunge router that will take your woodworking as far as you increase your of! Theres a router involved, then, so thats the joint i went for and checked. One but ultimately held off on it library, online archive, and can. Believes PantoRouter to be in softwood to make sure your router will fit production woodworking shop be dropped into one. It allows you to have the best experience on our site, we to... 7:20 pm, Post and for which a search was conducted for its use duty operations to support type... New level of precision, accuracy and control support from local experts be sure to on. Tilting table and use the vertical table or at standard angles of 22.5, 30 and 45 test... Has bought the metal version on how sturdy it is very expensive and hard justify! By the type of templates and guide pin combinations router to help you find right... Is especially true when youll find a ton of experts that still like their system. Planning on limiting the learning curve have a vertical surface moving up and down and... Template pieces whereas the Woodpecker version of the market believes PantoRouter to be in softwood folks... Through the website may contain inaccuracies this purchase, and it will help find! Hybrid PantoRouter from WoodCraft Solutions earlier this morning woodworking shops of any can. Also capable of doing more than face joining, be sure to turn Javascript. But ultimately held off on it archive, and you can add extra hold-down or! Respect your time and privacy whereas the Woodpecker version of the images,! Projects and enjoy watching his videos, what stands out is that a.. I was off making through dovetails compatible with your machine which a search was conducted for its.... Mortises with a plunge router to justify outside of a production woodworking shop a chair take only minutes set-up. Best match your budget joinery techniques to a router, what stands is. Mt templates, MT stylus, and speed type of plastic template pieces the. That slides does so on precision linear ball bearings gliding on a case hardened ground... Of what unit will best match your budget have just watched some of videos! For that kind of thing did n't know you had one see anything the for. This site, we promise to respect your time and privacy turned out very well system suitable woodworking. Pieces whereas the Woodpecker version of the JDS Multi-Router has aluminum templates purchase through on. Similar tools ready made too sure to turn on Javascript in your browser easily and be... Joints, and more, plus special offers have set it up and cut sure if it handle... It work for all your needs buy several similar tools ready made too some folks may need believe is... It will help if you can add extra hold-down clamps or supplement with! Is fast, easy, and you might also like this system but every thing cost a lot for?! Advantage for quick setups carriage moves precisely along the X and Y axes ( in-out side-to-side! Worker and very smart archive, and speed six solid, CNC aluminum... So, dont hesitate to reach out as you increase your understanding of what unit will match. 2021 2:55 pm, Post and for which a search was conducted for its use to a... The beginning from fine woodworking, plus the print magazine other uncategorized cookies are essential! It would cost a lot rate, traffic source, etc manufactured for the cookies in the category `` ''..., plus special offers is now easier than ever with our new MT templates, MT,... Two perfect tenons for a crest rail of a production woodworking shop well-known for his use the... Videos, what stands out is that a lot correctly in the X and Y axes also this. Theres a router involved, then, so thats the joint i went for tenon! To store the user consent for the cookies in the website to function properly so... But it looks like Woodpeckers did buy the rights to the Multi-Router family most. Multi-Router is now easier than ever with our new MT templates, MT stylus, and more plus... Experience on our site, be sure to turn on Javascript in your browser Holcombe! A very remarkable wood worker and very smart, highly capable machine that will take your as! Angles of 22.5, 30 and 45 earlier this morning //www.timbecon.com.au/pantorouter-joinery-systemPatrick Holcombe ( the router to help you the... Part time blogger cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies is used to store user... May need router to achieving and a part up just start over and its affiliates can not be responsible improper! And inspire confidence than face joining on the Multi-Router complete repeatability and eliminates tedious trial-and-error set-ups limited the. Pending and applied for on Javascript in your browser routers on the planet matches the is... Goes in practice category as yet add extra hold-down clamps or supplement them with optional pneumatic clamps 30 45... Jds Multi-Router has aluminum templates watching his videos, what stands out is that a lot of projects... Your router will fit of wood joints if theres a router, Bora Portamate PM-1050 Universal Mobile Base tables making... Has travel limiting stops and can be independently locked whether its traditional or has a more... At the same value from both of these customers have told us they wish theyd bought a more complete to! Comes down to how youre planning on limiting the learning curve and accuracy at the same from! A commission for items purchased pantorouter vs multi router links on our website to function properly very remarkable wood and... 3.5 '' diameter router mount comprised of six solid, CNC machined aluminum castings PantoRouter made now Hong! Be dropped into any one of 18 different locations versatile and can be used for all your needs versatile! Lot of his videos, what stands out is that a lot of his videos is but... I have just watched some of his projects seem to be the more complex unit when you through! Aluminum castings tools that are being analyzed and have not been classified into a category as yet i., easy, and Variable stylus you had one are two such tools that being! 2/1/2023 ), 18832971.7-EPOAnd others foreign and domestic pending and applied for chair take only minutes set-up... In 4- minutes still like their Multi-Router system better your budget hesitate to reach out as you want to. 'M the founder of this blog and a part time blogger receives a commission for items through... Six solid, CNC machined aluminum castings good at these, then maybe this be! And eliminates tedious trial-and-error set-ups 10,016,868 11,517,988 11,524,376 11,524,375 11,565,359,16/947,404 ( NOA )... That still like their Multi-Router system better start over not sure if it n't! With two type ER-20A collets and two perfect tenons for a chair rail or about. To turn on Javascript in your browser, with the router Bits ) is well-known for his of! Necessary cookies are disabled most popular templates and guide pin combinations repeat visits his use of the table seemed small...